The Biblical Mind

Listening to the Bible: Why Scripture Was Meant to Be Heard (Dru Johnson) Ep. #188

Most of us read the Bible with our eyes—but what if we’re missing something essential by not listening to it? In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson challenges the modern tendency to engage Scripture primarily as a written text, arguing that the Bible was designed to be heard. From the Torah readings of Moses to the public proclamation of Paul's letters, Scripture has always been an aural experience—one meant to be absorbed in community rather than private, silent reading.
Dr. Johnson explains why listening changes how we understand Scripture, uncovering literary structures like repetition, parallelism, and chiasms that are far easier to hear than to see. He also explores the cognitive science behind reading vs. listening, showing why oral engagement helps us retain and interpret biblical texts more deeply.
Could reclaiming the practice of hearing Scripture together revolutionize the way we experience the Bible? This episode dives into why the church should return to communal listening, what ancient Jewish and Christian traditions teach us, and how modern worship services might be reshaped by putting Scripture at the center—not just as a text to analyze, but as a living word to hear.
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Chapters 00:00 Introduction 00:03 The Natural Habitat of Scripture 04:15 Hear and Obey in Hebrew - The Shema 09:05 Active Listening and Vigorous Discussion 10:17 Listening vs. Reading: A New Perspective

The Rapture, the Mark of the Beast, & Christian Eschatology—Fact & Fiction (Matt Halsted) Ep. #187

What if much of what we believe about the end times is shaped more by modern speculation than by biblical theology? In this episode, Dr. Matthew L. Halsted joins The Biblical Mind Podcast to debunk common misconceptions about eschatology, including the rapture, the mark of the beast, and the role of the Middle East in biblical prophecy.
Halsted and Dru Johnson explore how American Christianity has often read Revelation through a me-centered lens, focusing on personal fears rather than the broader biblical narrative of renewal and justice. They discuss the history of end-times speculation, tracing it from the 16th century to modern prophecy teachers, and why discipline in reading scripture is crucial to avoiding theological confusion.
Drawing from his book The End of the World as We Know It, Halsted unpacks how early Christians understood eschatology and why the Bible’s emphasis is not on escaping the world but on God’s renewal of creation.
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Chapters:00:00 Introduction 00:03 Understanding Eschatology in American Christianity 10:19 What Happens When You Die? 16:59 The Nature of Post-Mortem Existence 28:25 Its The End of The World As We Know It 29:06 Pandemic Fears and Speculations 31:17 The Mark of the Beast and Public Response 33:45 Dispensationalism, The Rapture, and Tim Lahaye 38:23 Rapture Theology and Its Implications 45:53 Political Dimensions of Eschatology 50:47 Future Projects and Research Directions

How Scripture Reads Scripture: Understanding Biblical Intertextuality (Brent Strawn) Ep. #186

How does the Bible interpret itself? In this episode, Dr. Brent Strawn joins The Biblical Mind Podcast to explore intertextuality—the ways biblical authors intentionally or unconsciously connect their writings to earlier texts. Strawn breaks down different types of intertextuality, from direct citations (like Jesus quoting Psalm 22) to subtle patterns that only emerge when we read scripture holistically.
Together with Dru Johnson, Strawn unpacks how intertextuality deepens biblical meaning and why recognizing these connections can transform the way we understand scripture. They also discuss the surprising link between Solomon and the Mark of the Beast (666) and how Revelation critiques imperial power using the legacy of Israel’s wealthiest king.
Strawn argues that biblical authors weren’t just making random allusions—they were teaching us how to read scripture well. If we can recognize these hyperlinks, we can move beyond surface-level readings and grasp the depth of biblical theology.
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Chapters00:00 Introduction 00:14 Understanding Intertextuality: Strong vs. Weak 02:07 The Unintentional Connections Between Texts 05:13 Patterns in Biblical Texts: A Deeper Look 08:08 Intertextuality and Its Interpretive Significance 11:10 Criteria for Evaluating Intertextual Connections 14:30 The Importance of Context in Scripture 17:19 The Dangers of Thin Intertextual Links 20:28 Exploring the Number 666 in Biblical Texts 26:13 Intertextuality and Biblical Texts 29:22 The Beast and Solomon: A Biblical Connection 33:13 Activating the Biblical Imagination 39:32 The Role of Scripture in Shaping Virtue 44:29 Hyperlinks in Revelation and Cultural References

American Christian Nationalism and the Way of Jesus (Caleb E. Campbell) Ep. #185

What if Christian nationalism isn’t a head problem but a heart problem? In this thought-provoking episode, Dr. Dru Johnson speaks with Caleb Campbell, author of Disarming Leviathan, about the rise of Christian nationalism in America and how Christians can engage this movement missionally rather than combatively.
Campbell discusses the anxieties that drive people to embrace Christian nationalism, highlighting the fear of pluralism, the longing for safety, and the allure of worldly power. Drawing from his experience as a pastor and cultural observer, he argues that many Christian nationalists are not inherently motivated by hatred but by a deep desire for rest and stability in a changing world.
The conversation delves into themes of hospitality, humble subversion, and the transformative power of the cross, challenging listeners to rethink how they approach those with opposing views. Campbell offers practical steps for engaging Christian nationalists, emphasizing the need for curiosity, safety, and scripture-centered dialogue.
Find Caleb E. Campbell at: Instagram handle: https://www.instagram.com/revcalebcampbellFacebook profile: https://www.facebook.com/caleb.campbell2X profile: https://www.twitter.com/calebphxBluesky profile: https://bsky.app/profile/revcalebcampbell.bsky.social
Find Disarming Leviathan at: https://www.ivpress.com/disarming-leviathan For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought/ X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought/ Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters 00:00 Introduction 00:03 Exploring the Good Impulses of Christian Nationalism 10:18 The Dilemma of Power: Christian Leadership in Politics 23:22 Christian Nationalism: Ideology and Identity 32:23 The Means vs. The Ends: A Christian Perspective on Power 33:25 The Call for Unity and Protection 34:26 Christian Nationalism: A Critical Examination 35:22 Navigating Leadership as a Christian 36:44 The Role of Scripture in Decision Making 38:57 The Complexity of Power Dynamics 39:54 The Dilemma of Political Engagement 42:48 The Duality of Christian Identity 44:41 The Dangers of Christian Nationalism 47:39 Personal Experiences with Christian Nationalism 51:11 A Shift in Perspective: From Combat to Mission 54:43 Practical Steps for Engagement 57:47 Creating Safe Spaces for Dialogue 01:00:30 The Importance of Humility in Conversations

Joseph's Brothers Never Sold Him Into Slavery (Ari Lamm) Ep. #184

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson interviews Rabbi Dr. Ari Lamm about a provocative interpretation of the Joseph narrative: Joseph’s brothers did not sell him into slavery. Rabbi Lamm explains that while the brothers planned to sell Joseph, they never completed the act. Instead, Midianite merchants discovered Joseph in the pit and sold him to Ishmaelites, creating ambiguity in the biblical text.
Rabbi Lamm delves into the narrative techniques of the Hebrew Bible, emphasizing its minimalist yet profound storytelling. He discusses how key Hebrew words and repeated motifs, such as “sell” (Machar), link the Joseph story to broader biblical themes of chosenness, rejection, and familial dynamics. Joseph’s perception of rejection by his father, Jacob, is also explored, tying his emotional journey to the larger narrative of Genesis. The discussion highlights the development of key characters, including Judah’s moral growth and Reuben’s failure to lead.
These arcs foreshadow the future roles of the tribes of Israel, underscoring Genesis’s role as a foundational text for understanding biblical theology and history. This episode invites listeners to engage deeply with scripture, appreciate its narrative sophistication, and consider alternative interpretations that illuminate its enduring relevance.
Find Ari Lamm at:
https://twitter.com/arilamm https://twitter.com/gfaitheffort https://www.instagram.com/holy_landings
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction 02:40 Understanding Joseph's Silence 05:19 The Role of Dreams in Joseph's Life 08:12 The Emotional Revelation of Family 10:39 The Complexity of Selling Joseph 13:30 The Brothers' Journey of Growth 16:07 The Consequences of Actions 18:52 The Legacy of the Tribes 21:42 The Moral Implications of the Sale 24:37 The Brothers' Guilt and Recognition 25:58 The Brothers' Guilt and Joseph's Plea 27:38 The Pit: A Place of Despair 30:10 The Brothers' Plan and Reuben's Dilemma 33:36 The Caravan and the Brothers' Decision 37:07 Reuben's Return and the Aftermath 41:42 The Complexity of Joseph's Journey 45:28 Understanding the Text: Insights and Interpretations 45:51 Learning Hebrew: Resources and Recommendations

The State of Hebraic Thought in 2025 (Dru Johnson) Ep. #183

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson and Mike Tolliver reflect on the growth and challenges of Hebraic thought over the past year and explore its future trajectory in 2025. They highlight recent scholarly advancements, key publications, and practical tools that are shaping the field. Dr. Johnson discusses notable books, including Human Divine Interactions in the Hebrew Scriptures by Beryl Dove Lerner and Just Discipleship by Michael Rhodes, which integrate Hebraic thought into contemporary issues such as justice and divine-human relationships. Resources like the Bible Project, Disciple Dojo, and Bible Dojo are emphasized for their contributions to making Hebraic thought accessible to diverse audiences. The episode also tackles challenges, including the oversaturation of content and the difficulty of discerning reliable voices. Dr. Johnson advocates for careful engagement with diverse perspectives and emphasizes the communal nature of Hebraic thought, encouraging listeners to study scripture collaboratively and critically. Looking ahead, the Center for Hebraic Thought plans to expand its offerings with online courses, workshops, and collaborative discussions that challenge traditional theological paradigms and realign them with biblical insights. This forward-looking conversation underscores the vibrancy and relevance of Hebraic thought in academic and faith communities.
Articles:
Philosophical Engagement with the Hebrew Bible by Arthur Keefer https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1476993X221124950
The Hebrew Bible and The Philosophy of Religion by Jaco Gericke
https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt32bzm3
Books:
Human-Divine Interactions in the Hebrew Scriptures: Covenants and Cross-Purposes By Berel Dov Lerner https://www.routledge.com/Human-Divine-Interactions-in-the-Hebrew-Scriptures-Covenants-and-Cross-Purposes/Lerner/p/book/9781032539287
Flood and Fury: Old Testament Violence and the Shalom of God by Matthew J. Lynch (Portraying Violence in the Hebrew Bible) https://www.ivpress.com/flood-and-fury
Just Discipleship: Biblical Justice in an Unjust World by Michael J. Rhodes
https://www.ivpress.com/just-discipleship
Numbers: An Introduction and Commentary by Peter Altmann and Caio Peres https://www.christianbook.com/numbers-an-introduction-and-commentary/9780830842902/pd/842902
Reading the Old Testament as Christian Scripture: A Literary, Canonical, and Theological Survey by Mark S. Gignilliat (Author), Heath A. Thomas (Author) https://bakeracademic.com/p/reading-the-old-testament-as-christian-scripture-mark-s-gignilliat/598786
Jesus and the Law of Moses: The Gospels and the Restoration of Israel within First-Century Judaism by Paul T. Sloan (Author) http://bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/jesus-and-the-law-of-moses/415310
Paul the Storyteller: A Narratological Approach by Christoph Heilig https://www.eerdmans.com/9780802878953/paul-the-storyteller/
Wine, Soil, and Salvation in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament By Mark Scarlata https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/wine-soil-and-salvation-in-the-hebrew-bible-and-new-testament/1C1B582958A9591ACE009889987EB238
Paul and the Resurrection of Israel By Jason Staples https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/paul-and-the-resurrection-of-israel/E88A324A84EB7F7533F23817E4FF17AD
Cursing with God: The Imprecatory Psalms and the Ethics of Christian Prayer By Trevor Laurence https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481316477/cursing-with-god/
Organizations:
Theopolis: https://theopolisinstitute.com/
Disciple Dojo: https://www.youtube.com/@DiscipleDojo
BibleProject: https://bibleproject.com/ Learning/
Software:
Aleph with Beth: https://www.youtube.com/@AlephwithBeth
BibLingo: https://biblingo.org/
BibleDojo: https://www.enterthebibledojo.com/
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
02:13 Recent Scholarly Contributions to Hebraic Thought
07:20 Diverse Resources and Authors in Hebraic Thought
15:33 Organizations and Platforms Supporting Hebraic Thought
23:31 Tools and Resources for Understanding Hebraic Thought
29:45 Navigating the Challenges of Hebraic Thought
34:54 The Importance of Questioning and Community Engagement
45:07 Evaluating Influential Voices in Hebraic Thought

Hebraic Thought, "What Hath Darwin...", and What's Coming Next (Dru Johnson) Ep #182

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson, president and founder of the Center for Hebraic Thought, explains the concept of Hebraic thought and its enduring relevance. Hosted by Mike Tolliver, the discussion explores how the biblical authors understood and conveyed ideas about freedom, justice, morality, and the nature of reality. Dr. Johnson defines Hebraic thought as the intellectual framework reflected in the Hebrew Bible and extended into the New Testament.
The conversation highlights the distinctiveness of Hebraic thought compared to Greek and modern Western philosophy. Dr. Johnson emphasizes that the biblical authors often prioritized restoration and community over punitive justice, demonstrating a wisdom-centered approach to ethics and relationships. The discussion also clarifies common misconceptions, distinguishing Hebraic thought from later Jewish philosophical traditions and situating it as a foundational framework for understanding scripture.
Dr. Johnson addresses how Hebraic thought can inform contemporary issues, from justice to scientific inquiry, by offering a conceptual foundation rooted in scripture. He also introduces his upcoming projects, including a book on Hebraic philosophy of science, aimed at bridging ancient biblical insights with modern intellectual challenges.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction
01:26 Understanding Hebraic Thought
04:04 The Distinction of Hebraic Thought
06:34 Hebraic Thought in Historical Context
08:06 Paul and the Greco-Roman Influence
09:55 Philosophical Misunderstandings of Hebraic Thought
12:05 Biblical Scholars and Hebraic Thought
14:51 Cross-Pollination of Disciplines
17:50 Hebraic Thought in Everyday Ethics
22:37 Cultural Forces Against Understanding
24:59 Community Engagement with Scripture
27:32 Exploring Hebraic Thought and Darwin
32:00 The Conceptual Worlds of Natural Selection
33:46 Reception of the Book and Future Implications
34:23 Exploring Hebraic Thought and Science
38:36 The Intersection of Logic, Math, and Science

ICYMI: The Church's Alarming Neglect of the Old Testament (Brent Strawn) Ep. 181

This episode was originally published on April 30, 2021. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners.
In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson interviews Dr. Brent Strawn to discuss his thought-provoking book, The Old Testament is Dying. Dr. Strawn argues that the Old Testament is increasingly neglected in many Christian circles, resulting in a loss of scriptural literacy and depth. Comparing the Old Testament to a language, he explains how fluency in its teachings requires immersion and consistent practice. Without this, the language of faith risks fading into irrelevance.
Dr. Strawn outlines the challenges posed by cultural and chronological distance from the biblical authors, making empathetic and accurate interpretation of scripture more difficult. He emphasizes the need for Christians to approach the Old Testament as authoritative scripture, not just as a historical or theological backdrop to the New Testament. Through engaging examples, he illustrates how neglecting the Old Testament diminishes a believer’s understanding of foundational concepts like justice, love, and God’s covenantal promises.
The conversation also offers practical solutions, including incorporating more Old Testament readings into worship, sermons, and Christian music. Dr. Strawn’s insights inspire a renewed commitment to rediscovering the Old Testament’s rich vocabulary and its vital role in shaping a vibrant and holistic faith. A must-listen for anyone passionate about scripture!
Chapters
00:00 Understanding the Challenges of Biblical Interpretation08:42 The Decline of the Old Testament in Modern Christianity12:35 Reviving Old Testament Literacy20:08 Integrating Old and New Testament Teachings35:01 The Conceptual World of the Ancient Near East
Brent’s book The Old Testament is Dying: A Diagnosis and Recommended Treatment

ICYMI: The Biblical Authors vs. Greek Philosophy (Joseph Dodson) Ep. 180

This episode was originally published on April 2, 2021. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners.
In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson sits down with Dr. Joseph Dodson to explore the intersection of Greco-Roman philosophy, Stoicism, and Hebraic thought in shaping the New Testament. Dr. Dodson explains how the Bible didn’t emerge in a vacuum but within a dynamic cultural context influenced by Judaism and Greco-Roman ideas.
The discussion highlights Stoicism, the dominant philosophy of the first century, which emphasized overcoming passions, achieving contentment, and the transformative power of reason. Dr. Dodson demonstrates how Stoic principles overlap with Christian teachings, as seen in Paul’s writings and the Gospel of John, which incorporates philosophical concepts like the Logos. He also examines how biblical authors adapted, affirmed, and challenged these ideas to articulate a distinctly Hebraic worldview.
Dr. Dodson emphasizes the importance of studying texts like the Apocrypha and Greco-Roman writings to fully grasp the intellectual milieu of early Christianity. He explains how Jewish and Hellenistic ideas coexisted in a “roundabout,” influencing each other in profound ways.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Hebraic and Greco-Roman Thought04:09 The Influence of Stoicism on New Testament Texts13:32 Philosophical Foundations: Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle20:01 The Interplay of Hellenistic and Hebrew Intellectualism29:00 Recommended Readings for Understanding Context

Judaism is About Love (Shai Held) part 2 Ep. 179

In this continuation of their conversation, Dr. Dru Johnson speaks with Rabbi Dr. Shai Held about the themes explored in his book, Judaism is About Love. The discussion delves into the complexities of love, law, and chosenness within Jewish thought, offering a profound perspective on the relationship between particularity and universalism.
Rabbi Held addresses the idea of divine chosenness, emphasizing that God’s love for Israel is unique but not exclusive. He critiques modern rejections of chosenness as caricatured and argues for a theology that balances grace with humility. Rabbi Held also explores the tension between loving one’s own and extending love universally. He describes Judaism’s “particularist universalism,” where love for one’s family and community naturally expands to encompass all humanity as bearers of God’s image.
The conversation turns to the ethics of love, including the challenges of enemy love and the discernment required to navigate complex relationships. Rabbi Held shares deeply personal stories that illustrate the real-life implications of these ideas, demonstrating how love can be both demanding and transformative.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction03:13 The Concept of Divine Love for Israel08:02 The Obligation to Love Neighbors13:18 Understanding Love for Enemies20:16 Navigating Complex Questions of Love24:38 Reflections on the Book and Its Impact