The Biblical Mind

Wine, Worship, and Craftsmanship: A Biblical Theology of Alcohol (John Dunne) Ep #206

Was wine in the Bible just a calorie source—or something far richer? In this fascinating conversation, Dr. John Anthony Dunne, author of The Mountain Shall Drip Sweet Wine: A Biblical Theology of Alcohol, joins Dru Johnson to explore how wine and alcohol shaped ancient Israel’s culture, theology, and imagination.
Dr. Dunne traces how biblical wine reflected not only the scarcity and agricultural hopes of ancient life, but also a tradition of craftsmanship, connoisseurship, and divine blessing. Together they unpack why biblical wine wasn’t just functional—it was symbolic of abundance, peace, and God’s favor.
From fermentation methods and ancient storage to the surprising case for white wine at the wedding at Cana, this episode challenges modern assumptions about alcohol in Scripture. Dunne explores why the biblical world viewed wine as inherently miraculous, why production was tied to the land promise, and how modern communion links us to Canaan’s terroir in unexpected ways.
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction00:42 Christianity and Alcohol02:52 Cultural Perspectives on Alcohol Consumption06:01 Theological Implications of Alcohol in Scripture08:58 Wine Production and Its Significance12:00 The Craft of Winemaking in Ancient Times14:57 Grapes: Beyond Wine Production18:06 Environmental Factors in Viticulture20:58 The Symbolism of Wine in Biblical Texts22:06 The Importance of Climate in Winemaking25:11 Exploring Ancient Grape Varieties27:07 The Fermentation Process of Ancient Wines35:04 The Significance of Jesus' First Miracle45:10 Wine as a Connection to the Land

Is Nationalism Biblical? Yoram Hazony on Nations, Empires, and Justice (Yoram Hazony) Ep. #205

Is nationalism always bad—or does the Bible have a more nuanced view of nations, borders, and political life? In this fascinating episode, Israeli philosopher Yoram Hazony joins Dru Johnson to explore the political vision of the Old Testament, from the Table of Nations in Genesis to the prophetic hope of nations learning from Israel in peace.
Hazony explains how the Bible’s anti-empire stance emerges from the stories of Babel, Assyria, and Babylon—and why God’s vision for humanity includes independent nations with borders, traditions, and space to seek Him freely. Together they unpack how Israel’s kingship, laws, and tribal structure offer a model of checks, balances, and moral limits on power.
The conversation also tackles modern questions: What can Christians today learn from biblical nationalism? How does this compare with movements like Christian nationalism in the U.S.? And why does Hazony see so many modern Christian intellectuals missing the Old Testament’s political teachings?
For more of Yoram's literature:https://www.yoramhazony.org/https://x.com/yhazony
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Nationalism and the Bible00:56 Biblical Foundations of National Identity09:32 Political Philosophy in the Old Testament12:43 Critiques of Nationalism in the Hebrew Bible20:42 The Nature of Sin and Human Corruption22:40 Nationalism and the Biblical Perspective26:08 Borders and National Independence40:01 Governance and the Role of Law45:28 Christian Nationalism: Perspectives and Concerns

Do You See What I See? Worship, Joint Attention, and Being Human (Cockayne & Salter) Ep. #204

Is church just a place to think about God—or are we wired to worship together? In this groundbreaking episode, theologian Dr. Josh Cockayne and developmental psychologist Dr. Gideon Salter join Dru Johnson to explore how human beings are made for joint attention, and why gathering for worship is a deeply embodied, social necessity.
Drawing from their book Why We Gather, the conversation unfolds how infants develop the skill of “joint attention”—the ability to notice something with someone else—and how this same capacity is essential to biblical worship, from Genesis to Revelation. They argue that worship isn’t merely cognitive or emotional—it’s communal, embodied, and neurologically formative. Togetherness isn’t a nice-to-have; it’s the foundation of how we know God and the world.
From communion rituals and infant behavior to liturgical design and online church, the episode provides a practical, psychologically grounded, and theologically rich vision of church that challenges both individualism and shallow expressions of “community.”
For their book "Why We Gather," see the publisher's website here:
https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481322911/why-we-gather/
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Worship and Individual Experience02:59 The Role of the Body in Worship06:02 Joint Attention and Its Importance09:20 The Collaboration Between Psychology and Theology12:12 Understanding Joint Attention in Worship15:17 The Impact of Joint Attention on Community Worship18:05 Liturgy and Joint Attention in Practice21:09 Theological Implications of Joint Attention24:04 Cultural Jointness and Worship27:06 Conclusion and Reflections on Worship27:42 Children's Participation in Church28:42 Exploring Joint Attention in Liturgical Settings30:57 The Role of Community in Worship32:36 Understanding Jointness and Joint Attention35:12 The Dynamics of Participation in Worship36:18 Theological Perspectives on Joint Attention38:12 The Biological and Social Aspects of Gathering41:44 Critiques of Theoretical Frameworks in Worship

How Artists Think Biblically: Liturgies, Ritual, and the Weight of Words (Douglas McKelvey) Ep. #203

What gives someone the right to script your prayers? In this powerful conversation, Douglas McKelvey, author of the bestselling Every Moment Holy liturgical series, joins Dru Johnson to unpack the spiritual and theological journey behind his work. From a childhood steeped in neo-charismatic theology to a disillusioning college experience at Oral Roberts University, McKelvey shares how God used a profound unraveling—what many today might call “deconstruction”—to rebuild a biblically coherent faith through unexpected mentors and communities.
Listeners learn how McKelvey became part of the Art House Foundation and later the Rabbit Room, drawing from the legacies of Francis Schaeffer, Edith Schaeffer, and Andrew Peterson to create a community of artists grounded in Scripture. Along the way, he opens up about the fear and trembling that should attend writing liturgies—and what it means to write prayers people will carry into their most vulnerable moments.
This episode explores beauty, hospitality, ritual, and the theological integrity behind the words we say to God. Whether you're a liturgy lover, creative, or just someone seeking coherent theology after chaos, this is an episode that will stay with you.
Learn more about the Art House and Rabbit Room here:https://www.arthousenashville.com/our-storyhttps://www.rabbitroom.com/
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to the Rabbit Room02:22 The Evolution of the Rabbit Room05:17 Community and Connection in the Rabbit Room08:29 The Significance of Northwind Manor11:31 Personal Journey and Theological Foundations14:10 Navigating Doubt and Deconstruction23:08 Charlie Peacock and the Art House Foundation26:29 The Art House and Its Influence31:04 The Physical Space of the Art House34:20 Theological Foundations for Artists36:33 Every Moment Holy: A Journey of Prayer43:13 The Impact of Ritual in Prayer50:43 Reflections on the Craft of Prayer52:18 The Rabbit Room: A Hub for Creativity
 

Is Abraham a Hero or a Warning? How Genre Makes or Breaks Your Bible Reading (Andy Judd) Ep. #202

What if our biggest biblical misunderstandings come from reading the right words in the wrong way? In this episode, Old Testament scholar Dr. Andy Judd joins Dru Johnson to unravel the complex and often misused concept of genre in biblical interpretation. Drawing from his background in English literature and law, Dr. Judd explains how many theological debates, misreadings, and even dangerous interpretations arise not from misused Hebrew dictionaries—but from unspoken assumptions about genre.
Why do readers assume Abraham’s behavior is exemplary? Why do sermons treat biblical laws like modern legal codes? Why do people interpret apocalyptic visions as historical predictions? From Genesis to Judges, Paul’s letters to Revelation, Judd shows that failing to ask, “What kind of text is this?” is often where interpretation goes off the rails.
Blending humor, literary theory, and deep biblical insight, Judd offers practical ways to become better “travelers” in the ancient biblical world—learning to coordinate with texts the way we coordinate with traffic rules in a new country.
Andy Judd's personal website can be found here:https://www.andyjudd.com/
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Chapters:00:00 Introduction00:54 The Journey into Genre Studies03:26 Misinterpretations and Conflicts in Biblical Genre06:26 Understanding Narrative and Ethical Frameworks10:18 The Role of Genre in Biblical Interpretation12:39 Defining Genre: Conventions and Contexts14:37 Cultural Contexts and Genre Navigation18:35 The Boomerang Test: A Practical Approach to Genre24:32 Deep Structures and Genre Regulation28:08 Understanding Genre in Scripture33:54 The Role of Genre in Biblical Interpretation39:22 Biblical Law: A Unique Genre43:56 The Social Function of Biblical Law49:42 Wisdom and the Interpretation of Law

Storge, Justice, and the Ten Commandments: Rethinking Biblical Love (Mike Tolliver) Ep. #201

Is loving your family first a biblical idea—or a betrayal of Jesus’ call to love your neighbor? In this thought-provoking episode, Mike Tolliver—Executive Director of the Center for Hebraic Thought—joins Dru Johnson to explore his developing PhD thesis on Storge (family love), the kinsman-redeemer, and what biblical justice actually looks like.
Drawing on Torah, philosophy, and early Christian texts, Mike argues that Storge love is not only natural—it’s essential to a functioning society, and that Israel’s family-based justice system was designed to eliminate categories like “orphan” and “widow.” He explores why Paul uses the metaphor of adoption—and not kinsman-redeemer—for Gentile inclusion, and why the Ten Commandments are saturated with family ethics.
From Sophie's Choice-style sermon illustrations to questions about circumcision, baptism, and ethnic election, this episode unpacks the implications of what it means to love your kin without devaluing the stranger.
As Mike prepares for PhD work, his big question is: What does rightly ordered family love look like in Scripture—and what happens when it gets misordered?
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Chapters:
00:00 Exploring Academic Pursuits and Career Paths05:47 The Kinsman Redeemer: A Social Safety Net14:35 Storge and Kinsman Redeemer in Biblical Context19:54 Theological Implications of Kinship and Election27:34 Exploring the Promise of Descendancy29:03 Navigating the Path to a PhD30:56 The Challenge of Proposal Writing31:57 Understanding Storge in Hebraic Thought39:07 The Role of Storge in the Ten Commandments41:07 Stranger Love vs. Family Love43:55 Moral Dilemmas in Love49:56 The Future of Intergenerational Family Focus

Managing Fame, Faith, and the Stage: Inside the (Christian) Music Industry (Nick Barre) Ep. #200

What does it mean to call something “Christian music”? Nick Barré has spent decades in the music industry—from working at EMI with early Switchfoot to managing major names like Casting Crowns, KB, Brandon Heath, and more. In this 200th episode of The Biblical Mind, he joins Dru Johnson to reflect on the Christian music label, the tension between calling and category, and how artists navigate faith and fame.
Nick argues that labeling music—or restaurants or plumbers—as “Christian” may do more harm than good. He shares why genre categories are a business necessity but spiritually unhelpful, and why the most important questions artists must answer are about calling, audience, and identity—not chart placement.
From spiritual burnout to public affirmation, from the temptations of platform to the dangers of envy, Nick shares pastoral, industry-hardened wisdom on how to guide artists into longevity and spiritual wholeness. He even offers advice for aspiring Christian musicians—and what it really means to “show, not tell” when pursuing a creative calling.
Nick Barre's Company "Proper Management" can be found here:
https://www.propermanagement.net
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Chapters:00:00 Defining Christian Music03:11 The Evolution of Music Genres06:10 Navigating the Music Industry08:57 The Dangers of Labeling12:09 The Role of Artists in Ministry15:16 The Impact of Fame on Identity18:24 Identifying Unique Gifts in Artists25:41 Exploring Diverse Artist Portfolios28:29 Navigating Hard Conversations in the Music Industry31:05 Defining Success in the Arts33:15 The Challenge of Artistic Compromise37:06 Understanding Market Dynamics in Music40:22 Fragmentation of the Music Industry46:39 Advice for Aspiring Christian Artists

Why Intellectual Humility Is the Key to Understanding Scripture (Matt Whitman) Ep. #199

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson sits down with Matt Whitman, host of The Ten Minute Bible Hour, to explore why so many Christians—and skeptics—struggle with Scripture. Whitman shares what he’s learned from engaging millions online: people are often afraid to be wrong, shaped by graceless experiences in church and cancel culture in the wider world. The solution? Modeling curiosity, empathy, and intellectual humility.
Whitman opens up about his own faith journey, the impact of church hurt, and why he makes space for disagreement and exploration in his content. From deconstructing popular biblical themes to highlighting the beauty of traditions outside his own, Matt argues that deep scriptural engagement thrives in environments where it’s okay not to have all the answers.
Together, Dru and Matt delve into themes like biblical coherence, the importance of interpretive grace, and what it means to approach the Bible not as experts, but as learners. Their conversation models the very ethos they preach: thoughtful, generous dialogue rooted in the belief that God’s grace extends to our minds—not just our sins.
For More of Matt Whitman and the Ten Minute Bible Hour: https://www.youtube.com/@UC3vIOVJiXigzVDA2TYqaa0Qhttps://www.facebook.com/thetenminutebiblehourhttps://www.instagram.com/tenminutebiblehourhttps://www.twitter.com/MattWhitmanTMBHhttps://www.threads.com/@mattwhitmantmbh
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Chapters:00:00 Introduction00:54 Resistance to the Bible and Church Experiences04:57 Cultural Resistance and Historical Context07:44 Navigating Hurt and Church Experiences10:56 Empathy and Understanding in Conversations14:21 Normalizing Being Wrong17:20 Internal Cohesion in Christianity25:38 Universal Themes in the Bible32:44 Navigating Biblical Interpretation and Truth35:43 The Complexity of Biblical Truth37:55 The Pressure of Pastoral Performance42:14 The Challenge of Authenticity in Teaching45:32 Modeling Intellectual Grace and Humility49:40 Creating a Gracious Learning Environment53:16 The Nature of Knowledge and Learning in Faith

Evolution and Identity: A Jewish Perspective on Science and Belief (Rachel Pear) Ep. #198

What happens when science, religion, and education collide? In this episode, Dr. Rachel Pear shares her remarkable journey from growing up in New York’s modern Orthodox Jewish community to researching how evolution is taught and received across Israeli society.
A scholar of science education and prehistoric archaeology, Rachel discusses how Jewish, Christian, and Muslim communities in Israel grapple differently with the question of human origins. Why do some teachers avoid the topic altogether? Why do secular and religious students draw such hard lines around what’s “acceptable” to believe? And how do family, community, and national identity shape scientific acceptance?
Rachel also shares her experience presenting three distinct rabbinic views on evolution in schools, showing students that Jewish thought isn’t monolithic—and that questioning is part of the tradition. She explores the cultural weight of science, the legacy of eugenics, and how educators can create space for real dialogue in science classrooms.
Whether you’re an educator, a religious thinker, or just curious about how evolution meets identity, this episode offers a rich, honest look at a complex conversation that’s still evolving.
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Rachel's Journey02:49 Exploring Prehistoric Archaeology and Cultural Contexts05:48 The Intersection of Evolution and Religion08:48 Cultural Perspectives on Evolution in Israel11:57 The Role of Education in Science and Religion14:57 Diverse Views on Evolution in Arab Schools17:58 The Complexity of Science and Cultural Identity20:50 Reflections on Science, Culture, and Religion27:27 Navigating Values in Education32:20 The Complexity of Teaching Evolution35:53 Epistemology and the Scientific Method40:51 Cultural Perspectives on Evolution45:32 The Intersection of Tradition and Modernity

Is Evolution a Dirty Word? Muslim Perspectives on Science and Religion (Shoaib Malik) Ep. #197

Is the relationship between Islam and science as well-developed as it is in Christianity? Not even close—but that’s changing. In this episode, Dr. Shoaib Ahmed Malik, Lecturer in Science and Religion at the University of Edinburgh, joins Dru Johnson to share the emerging field of Islam and science, focusing on the hot topic of evolution.
Shoaib unpacks the historical development of Islamic engagement with science, tracing it from early encounters with Western scientific frameworks to the present. He explains why the Islamic world lacks infrastructure like textbooks, academic chairs, and journals for the science-religion conversation—and why that’s finally beginning to change.
But what about evolution? Shoaib shares why it remains a highly sensitive subject in Muslim-majority countries (including stories of professors losing jobs over it) and how Muslim views differ from Christian ones, especially around original sin, Adam, and human suffering.
This is an honest, fascinating look at how Muslims are navigating modern science, why cultural and religious taboos persist, and how Shoaib’s work is shaping new conversations at the intersection of Islamic theology and science.
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Shoaib Ahmed Malik's Journey03:11 Transition from Engineering to Humanities06:00 Teaching Experience in the UAE09:14 Pursuing Philosophy, Science, and Religion12:18 Publishing and Academic Recognition15:11 Navigating Career Changes and New Opportunities18:29 Exploring Science and Religion Conversations26:43 Navigating Conversations with Students27:29 Understanding Islam: Sunni vs Shia30:19 The Contemporary Muslim World: Sunni and Shia Dynamics31:34 The Intellectual History of Islam35:17 Muslim Perspectives on Science and Religion39:01 Islamization of Science: A Discourse Emerges42:48 The Development of Islamic Science Education44:25 Evolution and Its Reception in the Muslim World48:11 Unique Questions Muslims Ask About Evolution