The Biblical Mind

Sacrifice, Atonement, and Presence: Maybe Leviticus Doesn't Mean What We Think? (Phil Bray) Ep #234

What happens when an Australian butcher starts reading Leviticus—and finds it fun? In this unique episode, Dru Johnson speaks with Phil Bray, author of Leviticus on the Butcher’s Block, about how his day job cutting lambs and steaks helped him see the book of Leviticus in a whole new light. Phil traces his journey from casual Bible reader to Leviticus superfan, exploring how rituals, sacrifice, and atonement make far more sense when you’ve broken down hundreds of animals by hand.
Phil shares how ancient sacrificial rituals weren’t necessarily about violent death but about preparing food as a gift to God. The conversation dives into the Hebrew understanding of holiness, clean vs. unclean, and why God’s presence is depicted as a space without disease or death. Along the way, Phil and Dru reflect on Mary Douglas, Jewish slaughter laws, the power of smell and memory, and how the altar isn’t where the animal dies—but where it becomes holy.
Phil’s insights bring theology and meat science into one coherent (and hilarious) frame, showing why Leviticus is deeply spiritual, richly embodied, and more relevant than most Christians assume.
For Phil's YouTube Channel, go here:https://www.youtube.com/@Leviticus_is_fun
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Chapters:00:00 The Journey to Leviticus03:19 Understanding Atonement and Sacrifice06:19 The Butcher's Perspective on Rituals09:15 Cultural Context of Sacrifice12:32 The Nature of Death in Sacrifice15:29 The Art of Kosher Slaughter18:23 Leviticus: A Fun Exploration21:27 The Meaning Beyond Death in Rituals27:01 The Olfactory Experience of Worship30:24 The Significance of Sacrifice in Ancient Cultures34:07 Rethinking Atonement and Sacrifice39:19 The Life of Jesus: More Than Just Death45:06 Leviticus: A Guide to Drawing Near to God

ICYMI: How Old Testament Laws Can Shape Christians Today (Carmen Imes) Ep. #233

In this episode, Old Testament scholar Dr. Carmen Imes unpacks widespread Christian misunderstandings of Torah and shows how the laws of the Old Testament were never meant as a means of salvation, but as a way of living out Israel’s covenant identity. Rather than a legalistic burden, Torah was a gift of freedom—a lifestyle for a people already redeemed.
Dr. Imes explains how Jesus wasn’t raising the bar beyond Sinai but calling his followers back to its original heart: internal transformation, not external compliance. Through examples like the command against coveting and teachings on oath-making, she demonstrates how the Torah shaped a moral imagination rooted in God’s character.
She also reveals the narrative logic of Israel’s law: it was given within a story of deliverance, not in abstraction. Laws were embedded in history, and many operated more like wisdom paradigms than court-enforceable codes. This narrative-law fusion is unique to Israel among ancient Near Eastern cultures.
With compelling insights into the Ten Commandments, patriarchal structures, and agricultural ethics like gleaning, Imes challenges modern Christians to reinterpret Torah as a resource for discipleship—not something to discard, but to embody. Torah becomes not a list of rules, but a lens for living justly in every generation.
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Chapters:
0:00 Why the Torah isn't what gave salvation to the Israelites2:28 Why there are rules in the Bible7:44 Oath-making in the Hebrew Bible13:07 What the Ten Commandments were really like17:23 The uniqueness of the Hebraic covenants and Old Testament laws25:04 What it means to "love the LORD your God with all your heart"

ICYMI: Is the NT Just Stoic Philosophy? (Jonathan Pennington) Ep. #232

ICYMI: This episode is one of our earliest episodes, and originally aired on 5/14/2020
 
In this introductory conversation, Dr. Jonathan Pennington joins the Center for Hebraic Thought as its newest fellow and shares how his journey through philosophy and biblical scholarship led him to see the New Testament as part of a deeply sophisticated intellectual tradition. Pennington discusses how early Christianity, though written in Greek and shaped within a Hellenistic world, did not abandon its Jewish roots but rather translated its robust metaphysic across cultural lines.
Drawing from his work on Jesus as a philosopher, Pennington explains that the New Testament doesn’t reject or capitulate to Greco-Roman philosophy—it stands alongside it, often outthinking and outlasting it. In contrast to Stoicism’s emotional detachment and denial of suffering’s reality, the Bible presents a profoundly realistic vision: a God who enters the world, values the body, and promises the restoration of creation through Shalom.
Pennington argues that Jesus—especially in Matthew’s Gospel—functions as a public philosopher. In moments like the Sermon on the Mount or debates with religious elites, Jesus offers strikingly rational, ethical, and metaphysical responses to life’s biggest questions.
This episode introduces not only a new CHT fellow, but a vision of Scripture as intellectually vibrant, emotionally honest, and endlessly translatable.
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Faith, Innovation, and the Church's Future: Rethinking Tech and Ministry (Kevin Kim) Ep. #231

What happens when the tech elite of Silicon Valley use their skills to serve the church?
In this episode, Kevin Kim, executive director of Crazy Love Ministries and founder of Basil Tech, joins Dr. Dru Johnson to explore a radical idea: that technology, creativity, and innovation can be spiritual gifts to build up the Body of Christ. Drawing from his experiences with venture capitalists, Stanford designers, and software engineers from Apple and Google, Kevin explains how Basil Tech mobilizes volunteers to serve ministries with world-class digital tools.
But this isn’t just about flashy apps or slick design. Kevin critiques the tech industry’s isolating, consumeristic culture—and shares how discipleship must involve “laying down your non-fungible gift” for the good of others. From reimagining the sermon to redesigning urban ministry in East Palo Alto, his work shows that thoughtful innovation, when grounded in Scripture and humility, can fuel mission and foster true community.
“We don’t make anything better—we’ve made things worse at Basil,” Kevin jokes, “but we try to help amazing people do amazing things.” This conversation invites listeners to rethink what tech can do—not as an idol, but as a tool in God’s hands.
Connect with Kevin Kim's Basil Tech here:
https://www.basiltech.org/
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Chapters:
00:00 Journey into Tech and Faith02:44 Innovation in the Church06:08 Understanding Innovation vs. Technology08:56 Reimagining Ministry Practices11:52 The Role of Technology in Modern Missions15:00 Bazel Tech: Bridging Faith and Technology17:55 Discipleship in the Tech World

Getting Egypt Out of Israel: The Exodus Plagues as Spiritual Formation (Avery & Wadholm) Ep. #230

Are the ten plagues just divine punishment? Or are they intended to form a people?
In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson sits down with Dr. Rick Wadholm and Pastor Dalton Avery, co-authors of Plagued by Faith, to explore a more layered vision of the plague narratives in Exodus. Rather than merely acts of judgment, the plagues are portrayed as formative, disruptive events that unmake Egypt’s religious, political, and economic worldview—and detach Israel from it.
The Nile River, Egypt’s source of life, is turned to blood not only to confront Pharaoh, but to sever Israel’s spiritual dependence on Egypt. The calendar is reset at Passover, reorienting the people’s very sense of time and community. These acts weren’t random—they were theological statements shaping Israel’s identity, even while challenging Egypt’s gods .
As Dalton notes, “The Lord is not out here just doing violence for no reason, but there’s redemptive heart, there’s redemptive intent in every action of the Living God” . Rick adds, “Behold the face of God who sends plagues… somehow to offer a re-visioning of these stories as revealing this God”.
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Chapters:
00:00 The Genesis of the Book03:22 God vs. The Gods: Understanding the Plagues06:17 Deconstruction and Identity: The Plagues' Purpose09:27 The River: A Symbol of Life and Security18:26 Calendar and Community: Redefining Time for Israel21:51 Lessons from Egypt: What to Keep and What to Leave Behind23:38 The River's Dual Role: Life and Death25:22 Corporate Responsibility and Divine Justice27:02 Women of Courage: Midwives and Prophetic Resistance30:49 Jesus and the Exodus: Parallels and Fulfillment35:47 The Ongoing Plagues: Lessons from Israel's Journey39:48 Plagued by Faith: Understanding God's Intentions

Hebraic Thought On The Big Screen? Biblical Themes in Non-Biblical Movies (Dru Johnson) Ep. #229

What makes a movie biblical—even if it’s not about the Bible?
In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson explores that question with a curated list of films that reflect deep biblical structures—movies that “get what’s going on in Scripture” better than many that explicitly reference the Bible. These aren’t Sunday School adaptations—they’re gritty, layered, and emotionally raw.
Dru walks through Tree of Life (a meditation on Job and Genesis 1), A Serious Man (Job again, but existential and tragic), East of Eden (sibling rivalry and human depravity), Magnolia and The Breakfast Club (portraits of generational sin), American History X (a dark inversion of Proverbs 1–9), and Memento and Coco (explorations of memory against the backdrop of Deuteronomy). Even No Country for Old Men gets a nod for evoking the lawless chaos of Genesis 6.
Throughout, Dru challenges listeners to rethink what it means to portray biblical themes—not by surface references, but by engaging with the deep moral, literary, and theological structures that Scripture unveils.
If you’ve ever wondered whether “secular” films can teach us something profoundly biblical, this is your list.
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Chapters:
00:00 Exploring Biblical Themes in Film02:47 The Tree of Life and Job's Perspective06:02 Noah: Misinterpretation of Divine Signs07:07 East of Eden: Human Depravity and Sibling Rivalry09:19 Magnolia: Generational Sin and Its Consequences11:52 No Country For Old Men13:46 Breakfast Club: The Impact of Parenting17:13 American History X: The Search for Guidance20:28 Memory and Identity in Film23:01 Coco: The Importance of Remembrance

Equip the Church to Think Biblically: How Your Church Can Fuel This Work

In this special message to church leaders, Dr. Dru Johnson speaks directly to pastors, elders, and ministry teams preparing next year’s budget. As someone who has served as a full-time pastor, he knows how critical and crowded those budget conversations can be—and he makes a case for why the Center for Hebraic Thought deserves a place in your missions giving line.
“If you’ve passed along our articles, if you’ve listened regularly to our podcast or shared it with others,” Dru says, “then you’ve already seen the value.” The Center doesn’t just produce The Biblical Mind podcast—it also creates Biblical Thinks workshops, a scholar-guided book series for lay readers, and the Hebraic Thought Community for shared reading, discussion, and formation.
These resources are built to equip the Church to think along the grain of Scripture and extend its wisdom into everyday life. But that mission depends on ministry partners who believe in the vision—and are willing to give.
Whether it’s $100/month or more, churches can help sustain this growing movement by adding the Center for Hebraic Thought to their missions budget. As Dru says, “Whatever you can do will help, and we thank you very much for partnering with us.”
 
Follow This Link to Become A Church Partner:
https://hebraicthought.org/church-partners/

Fueling Hebraic Thought: How You Can Help

In this candid and heartfelt message, Dr. Dru Johnson steps out from behind the mic to speak directly to you—the listener, the learner, the potential donor.
“I’m a recurring giver. I actually pay to do this work.” That’s how strongly he believes in the mission of the Center for Hebraic Thought. In this short but powerful donor appeal, Dru explains how the Center’s podcast, public resources, book series, and workshops are made possible—not by salaries or institutional budgets—but by the generous support of people like you.
He outlines the unique work of the Center: promoting a biblical way of thinking that’s structurally rich, theologically grounded, and practically wise. From the top-20-ranked Biblical Mind Podcast, to a growing Hebraic Thought Community, to partnerships with publishers and institutions, this movement is growing—but it needs your help to continue.
“I used to be embarrassed to ask,” Dru says, “but I’m not anymore.” Whether you’re a scholar, pastor, teacher, or lifelong learner, you can become part of the team by giving a one-time gift—or becoming a recurring donor like Dru.
If you’ve ever benefited from the work of the Center, now’s the time to give back.
One Time Gifts:https://hebraicthought.org/give
Recurring Donations (and the gift of the Donor Book Series):https://hebraicthought.org/donor-book-series

Why Scholars Gather: A Tour Through the Wild World of Biblical Academia (Dru Johnson) Ep. #228

What actually happens when thousands of biblical scholars descend on a single convention center?
In this unusual and behind-the-scenes episode, Dru Johnson roams the floor of the Society of Biblical Literature Annual Meeting in Boston to ask a range of publishers and scholars—from Langham Publishing to Prairie College—what these conferences are really like. From the excitement of free books to the dread of reading papers aloud in monotone, this episode reveals both the inspiring and ridiculous sides of academic gatherings.
Dr. Cindy Parker shares the joy of “seeing people from Australia and Israel and just Europe all over the place,” while also admitting, “there’s a lot of ego in the room.” Megan Roberts, a professor in Canada, offers a more practical critique: “Just Google how many words is a 20-minute presentation. Then do it.”
Meanwhile, publisher reps express their weariness with “sweaty” scholars who show up on the final day asking, “What here is free?” And Dr. Chris Skinner offers a thoughtful defense of the format: “The only way you can become better is by being around people who are already better than you.”
This episode is honest, occasionally surprising, and always hilarious —your personal audio tour of biblical scholarship in the wild.
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Chapters:
00:00 Langham Publishing's Mission and Focus05:56 Scholarly Behavior and Conference Dynamics08:56 Presentation Skills and Audience Engagement11:56 The Value of Academic Conferences14:52 Endorsements and Marketing in Academic Publishing17:46 The Psychology of Scholarly Interactions

Where Is God? Eucharist, Trauma, and Divine Presence in Poland (Ela Wyrzykowska) Ep. #227

Where is God present—and how do believers describe it?
In this thoughtful and poetic episode, Polish theologian Dr. Elżbieta Łazarewicz-Wyrzykowska joins Dru Johnson to reflect on theology, trauma, and spiritual presence. From her childhood in Warsaw—where bullet holes and tanks marked the legacy of war—to her academic path through Hebrew Bible, literary theory, and empirical psychology, Elżbieta has never stopped asking difficult questions.
They discuss her research into the Book of Amos using the philosophical insights of Mikhail Bakhtin, seeing God as the “author” of Israel and disobedience as a form of anti-creation. They also explore her current interdisciplinary work in the psychology of religion: “We tried to measure where people locate God’s presence. Eucharist was the one thing people named first.”
She reflects on the tension between empirical categories and theological meaning: “God is present in special objects” didn’t resonate. But “God is present in the Eucharist”? That made sense. “I still wanted to be faithful to what the community told me.”
This episode is a masterclass in humility, scholarship, and the quiet brilliance of a scholar working at the intersection of Scripture, philosophy, trauma, and pastoral care.
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction and Personal Background02:49 Warsaw: A City of Resilience06:06 The Impact of Historical Trauma08:41 Academic Journey in Hebrew Bible Studies11:49 Literary and Philosophical Approaches to the Hebrew Bible14:35 Interdisciplinary Work and Its Challenges17:38 Exploring Bakhtin's Influence20:31 The Book of Amos: A Case Study23:42 Theological Measures and Empirical Research26:35 The Role of Practical Theology29:45 Conclusion and Future Directions