The Biblical Mind

Pharisees, Torah, and Sacrifice: What We Miss When We Misread the Law (Paul Sloan) Ep. #219

Did Jesus come to cancel the Law of Moses—or fulfill it? In this compelling episode, Dr. Paul Sloan joins Dru Johnson to challenge one of the most persistent misunderstandings in modern Christianity: the idea that Jesus and Paul opposed the Torah.
Drawing from his book Jesus and the Law of Moses, Sloan explains how legalism, misunderstanding of impurity, and modern Christian readings of Paul have distorted our view of the biblical law. Instead of a rigid checklist of 613 rules, the Torah was a wisdom-guided, relational framework that assumed the realities of sin, forgiveness, and impurity—and offered ways to address them.
They explore how Jesus engaged in sophisticated legal reasoning, why Paul continued to participate in the temple sacrificial system even after his conversion, and why the “burden” of the law has been misunderstood. Sloan also critiques how Pharisees are caricatured as villains, with damaging theological consequences—especially for how Christians view modern Jews and Judaism.
This episode brings clarity to what Jesus and Paul were really doing with the law—and why recovering this perspective is crucial for theology, biblical interpretation, and interfaith understanding today.
To get your copy of Jesus And The Law Of Moses:https://bakerpublishinggroup.com/products/9781540966384_jesus-and-the-law-of-moses
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Chapters:
00:00 Understanding the Law and Jesus' Perspective02:22 Hurdles in Understanding the Law05:13 Legalism and Its Misinterpretations08:20 The Case for Jesus and Paul Abolishing the Torah11:35 Exploring Dietary Laws and Their Implications14:33 The Nature of Law and Forgiveness17:31 Ritual Purity and Its Misconceptions20:24 Pharisees: Villains or Misunderstood Figures?23:25 Modern Implications of Ancient Interpretations24:43 Paul's Observance of the Torah25:33 The Role of Sacrifices in Early Christianity31:40 Jesus and the Sacrificial System34:04 Cultural Critique: Rabbinics and Jesus' Teachings

Is "Eye For An Eye" Christian? Jesus, Justice, and The Limits of Vengeance (Dru Johnson) Ep. #218

“Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.” We’ve all heard the phrase—but what does it actually mean in the Bible? In this episode, Mike Tolliver and Dr. Dru Johnson unpack the principle of Talion—Lex Talionis—and show why it’s one of the most misunderstood elements of biblical justice.
They trace the concept across Leviticus, Exodus, and Deuteronomy, exploring how this principle wasn’t about vengeance or equal retaliation, but a wisdom-guided restraint on power and a warning to those in authority: “Don’t abuse the vulnerable.” Far from being a hard legal code, eye-for-eye was a principle, surrounded by interpretive examples—not a statute for rigid enforcement.
The conversation moves from the Torah to Jesus’ teachings in Matthew 5, where Jesus isn’t rejecting the Old Testament, but interpreting it through its own inner logic. Jesus deepens the Torah’s call: instead of demanding retaliation, he teaches mercy and vulnerability—mirroring the Torah’s own ethic of protecting the powerless.
From ancient village courts to modern Twitter mobs, this episode challenges us to rethink how justice, mercy, and retaliation intersect in biblical ethics—and in our own lives.
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Chapters:00:00 Understanding Biblical Justice: The Principle of Talion02:13 Exploring the Context of Eye for an Eye05:15 The Role of Retributive and Restorative Justice08:26 Examining the Instances of Lex Talionis11:20 The Implications of Class in Biblical Law13:45 The Shift in Perspective: Power Dynamics in Justice16:36 Witnesses and the Nature of Justice19:39 God's Role in Justice and Retribution22:22 Connecting Lex Talionis to the Imago Dei25:41 Jesus and the Fulfillment of the Law28:32 The Kingdom of Heaven: A New Perspective on Justice31:28 The Floor and Ceiling of Biblical Law34:43 Practical Applications of Biblical Justice Today

Feasting on Hope: Sacraments, Trauma, and Formation in the Church (Hannah King) Ep. #217

Is communion just a symbolic snack—or a mysterious, formative act of grace?
In this episode, Rev. Hannah King, an Anglican priest and author of the upcoming Feasting on a Hope: How God Sets a Table in the Wilderness, joins Dru Johnson to explore why the Lord’s Supper is essential for the Christian life.
Hannah shares her journey from evangelical church spaces into Anglicanism, unpacking how the Eucharist re-centered her understanding of salvation as bodily, communal, and ongoing. She shares deeply personal stories—of trauma, grief, and healing—that reveal how the sacrament offers more than information: it offers union with Christ.
Together, they tackle difficult questions: Will weekly communion become rote? Why is the Eucharist so often sidelined in modern worship? What do we gain when we treat the Table as the center, not the add-on? And how does this sacrament speak to survivors, children, skeptics, and the spiritually weary?Hannah reminds us that even when we feel nothing, the Table is still doing its work. Like Sabbath and marriage, it shapes us slowly—but surely.
For more on Hannah's work:https://www.hannahmillerking.com/
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Chapters:00:00 Understanding Barriers to Worship03:06 The Role of Liturgy in Worship06:14 The Nature of Worship Experience08:58 Structure of Anglican Worship12:11 The Importance of the Eucharist15:07 Embodied Faith and Redemption22:21 Exploring the Nature of the Soul and Body24:40 The Familial Nature of Faith and Community26:20 The Dynamics of Church and Class28:12 Rituals, Liturgy, and Their Impact on Worship30:31 The Eucharist: A Meal of Fellowship and Equality35:18 Embracing Mystery in the Lord's Supper39:25 The Centrality of the Eucharist in Christian Worship

Theology in the Mother Tongue: Oral Bible Translation and Embodied Faith (Fausto Liriano) Ep. #216

What if the Bible isn’t something you read—but something you hear, memorize, and perform?
In this groundbreaking episode, Dr. Fausto Liriano shares his work translating the Bible into indigenous languages without writing it down. Through oral Bible translation projects in Guatemala, Mexico, and the Philippines, Dr. Liriano helps communities internalize Scripture in their own languages—through performance, storytelling, and memorization.
He explains how this work challenges not only Western assumptions about literacy and theology, but also confronts colonial patterns in missionary work, translation philosophy, and even what counts as “canonical” Scripture. The episode explores how indigenous languages often mirror Hebrew’s poetic ambiguity more than Spanish or English do, why repetition and redundancy are theological tools, and how people with no formal education are memorizing and performing hours of biblical material with precision and reverence.
Dr. Liriano also reflects on the need for contextual theology in Latin America—one that isn’t imported from the North, but developed by the people, for the people. He calls for a theology of corruption, of wholeness, and of embodied participation in God’s word.
For more on Fausto's work:https://translation.bible/staff-profile/fausto-liriano/
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Latin American Theology01:59 Misunderstandings of Latin American Theology04:47 The Need for Contextual Theology07:41 Corruption and Its Impact on Theology10:43 The Role of Indigenous Voices in Theology13:52 Oral Bible Translation in Guatemala16:47 The Value of Orality in Cultural Contexts25:08 Translating for Indigenous Cultures27:57 Exploring Orality in Biblical Texts30:13 The Process of Oral Bible Translation34:57 Community Engagement and Performance37:41 The Importance of Oral Tradition42:14 Navigating Colonialism and Canonization44:29 The Heart of Translation: Language and Connection

The Illusion of Intelligence: Why AI Can’t Replace Embodied Life (Noreen Herzfeld) Ep. #215

Is AI intelligent—or just artificial? In this provocative episode, Dr. Noreen Herzfeld, a rare scholar of both computer science and theology, joins Dru Johnson to expose what most people overlook about artificial intelligence. Drawing from her recent book The Artifice of Intelligence, she challenges the mythology of AGI (artificial general intelligence) and critiques the environmental, social, and theological costs of current AI use.
Herzfeld argues that large language models are plateauing and that the real danger isn’t a superintelligence—it’s our uncritical, energy-intensive use of biased software masquerading as neutral tools. She warns of AI’s water and fossil fuel demands, its disembodied affirmation loops, and the illusion that chatbots are viable substitutes for therapists, pastors, or friends.
Rooting her critique in Christian theology, Herzfeld defends the value of embodiment, human uniqueness, and community. She sees modern AI and transhumanist dreams as a return to ancient Gnostic heresies—disembodied, elitist, and ultimately dehumanizing.
This episode is essential for anyone navigating the ethical, spiritual, and ecological implications of AI. You’ll come away more equipped to use AI critically—and to resist the false promises of digital utopia.
For Noreen's Book "The Artifice of Intelligence":https://www.fortresspress.com/store/product/9781506486901/The-Artifice-of-Intelligence
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Chapters:00:00 The Current State of AI Technology02:21 Environmental Impact of AI07:55 Understanding AI and AGI16:36 The Dangers of Chatbots19:42 Embodiment and AI30:47 Future of AI and Its Societal Role

Becoming God’s Family: Against Church Hurt, Isolation, and Autonomy (Carmen Imes) Ep. #214

Can you be a Christian without the church? In this timely episode, Dr. Carmen Imes argues forcefully—and pastorally—that Christianity without community is a contradiction. Drawing from her new book Becoming God’s Family, she and Dru Johnson explore why so many people are walking away from church and what it would take to draw them back.
From church hurt to spiritual abuse to toxic celebrity culture, Carmen doesn’t shy away from the reasons people leave. But she also offers theological and pastoral wisdom on why we can’t give up on the church. They explore biblical stories of failed community, why Hagar’s story matters, and what healthy faithfulness looks like in a flawed body.
They also discuss when it’s time to leave a church, how American and global cultures can distort biblical community, and why true belonging means discomfort, difference, and even lament. Drawing on stories from her life and ministry, Carmen makes the case that church isn’t about getting what we want—it’s about becoming who we’re meant to be.
For Carmen Imes' substack:https://substack.com/@carmenjoyimes
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Chapters:
00:00 The Importance of Community in Faith01:37 Addressing Church Disconnection Post-Pandemic04:22 The Role of Scripture in Community Dynamics07:17 Navigating Church Hurt and Abuse10:36 Finding Hope in Faithful Communities13:46 The Broader Picture of Church Life16:38 Understanding God's Family Beyond the Church18:39 The Power of Community and Discipleship20:03 Cultural Blind Spots and Family Loyalty21:42 The Radical Nature of Church Family25:24 The Ananias and Sapphira Lesson27:59 The Role of Green Rooms in Church31:10 Lamenting Together as a Family32:45 The Messiness of Community35:34 The Quest for Like-Mindedness37:32 Diversity in Church and Community41:58 Creative Solutions for Multicultural Worship
 

Literature and Idealism: Or, How The Bible Is A "Thick" Story (Karen Swallow Prior) Ep. #213

What do Tolkien, vocation, and gritty literature have in common? In this conversation, Dru Johnson talks with literary scholar Dr. Karen Swallow Prior about why Christians often gravitate toward fantasy and romantic ideals—and why that can be a problem. Karen critiques the elevation of genre fiction like The Lord of the Rings as literary canon and urges Christians to engage “thick texts” that challenge us and train us to read Scripture more deeply.
They discuss how modern reading habits—dominated by email, social media, and skimmable articles—undermine our ability to understand both literature and biblical texts. Karen argues that literature forms our posture toward the world, and that our spiritual and moral imagination needs the grounding realism found in great novels and gritty stories.
The conversation pivots to Karen’s new book on vocation, exploring how distorted expectations around passion, work, and calling are leaving young people disillusioned. Instead, she calls for a deeper, more historically grounded view of labor, meaning, and responsibility.
This episode is a must-listen for those interested in education, theology, literature, and the subtle ways imagination shapes our lives of faith.
For more of Karen's literature:https://karenswallowprior.com/
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Chapters:
00:00 Exploring Literature and Vocation02:37 The Role of Literary Criticism in Cultural Contexts05:44 Tolkien, Lewis, and the Literary Canon08:46 Understanding Thick Texts: Literature and the Bible12:04 The Importance of Reading Skills in Biblical Studies14:55 Interpreting the Bible: Layers of Meaning in Texts19:49 The Importance of Humility in Understanding Literature24:00 Navigating Vocation and Career Expectations29:54 The Reality of Menial Jobs and Their Value33:37 Balancing Idealism and Grit in Literature38:47 Finding Vocation in the True, Good, and Beautiful

Tribes, States, & Empires: Scripture’s Vision for a Virtuous Political Order (Yoram Hazony) Ep. #212

In this second conversation with political philosopher Yoram Hazony, we dive deeper into the biblical concept of nationhood, wrestling with listener-submitted questions on nationalism, empire, and political virtue. Hazony responds to critiques and clarifies his position: biblical nationalism is not about racial purity or imperialism, but about the virtue of limited, self-governing peoples—unified not by ethnicity but by shared laws, traditions, and faith.
Hazony distinguishes biblical terms like am and goy, explores the status of converts like Ruth, and dismantles the modern racialized understanding of nationhood. He emphasizes that scripture assumes nations will be internally diverse, but not infinitely so—there must be a dominant center that holds people together.
The conversation also explores why biblical literature, not Greco-Roman thought, shaped the American constitutional order, and why the prophets critique empire while affirming the need for some form of the state. As Hazony puts it, “Purity is not the goal. Faithful unity is.”
For the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy article Yoram mentioned in the interview, access the PDF here:https://journals.law.harvard.edu/jlpp/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/2025/06/Hammer-FINAL_TC-JH-YRH-edits.pdf
For more of Yoram's literature:https://www.yoramhazony.org/https://x.com/yhazony
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Chapters:
00:00 The Virtue of Nationalism05:19 Understanding Nation in Biblical Context10:42 The Role of Genetics and Kinship in Nations15:25 Diversity and Unity in National Identity20:09 Power Dynamics in Heterogeneous Nations25:23 Biblical Foundations of Western Political Thought38:14 The Christian Heritage of the West41:15 Separation of Powers and the Mosaic Constitution44:37 Separation of Church and State48:29 The Concept of Empire59:00 The Role of Kings and the State01:00:17 Eschatology and the Future of Nations

Just War, Christianity, and The Call to Serve: The Ethics of Military Service (Darren Duke) Ep #211

Should Christians serve in the military? In this sobering and nuanced episode, Dru Johnson sits down with retired Colonel Darren Duke—Marine Corps Special Operations commander and intelligence officer—to unpack this deeply personal and morally complex question. Drawing from over 30 years of military experience, Duke shares his evolving view of military service, from Cold War patriotism to the hard-earned disillusionment of post-9/11 combat.
He offers insight into how symbols like the Punisher, Spartan helmets, and Valhalla became coping mechanisms for troops struggling with the trauma and moral ambiguity of prolonged warfare. Duke also warns young Christians to prepare not only for the battlefield but for the morally challenging culture within the military itself.
This conversation does not prescribe easy answers but outlines how one might think Christianly about enlistment, national service, and the weight of violence in a fallen world. Listeners will walk away better equipped to consider military service with sober realism, moral clarity, and theological depth.
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Military Service and Personal Background09:54 Reflections on Military Service and Christian Identity17:52 The Complexity of War and Its Justifications20:13 The Weight of War: Moral Trauma and Reflection22:12 Existential Questions in Military Service24:26 Navigating Morality in Combat28:12 The Christian Perspective on Military Service32:27 Defending the Defenseless: A Moral Duty35:32 The Role of Leadership in Military Ethics

Building a Movement: Why the Church Needs Hebraic Thought—and What We’re Doing About It Ep. #210

In this update episode, Dru Johnson and Mike Tolliver pull back the curtain on the work happening at the Center for Hebraic Thought. From filing 501(c)(3) nonprofit status and building a stellar advisory board, to launching a redesigned website and reviving in-person workshops, the CHT has been quietly preparing for long-term growth and broader influence.
They discuss the newly relaunched Hebraic Thought Community (HTC) on Facebook—already hundreds strong—and the four activities that bring the community together: highlighting member-created resources, sharing weekend reading, gathering weekly for public listening of Scripture, and hosting scholar Q&As. This digital community is sparking cross-disciplinary conversations, surfacing unexpected gems from laypeople, and reimagining how Christians listen to the Bible together.
Dru and Mike also explain why listening (not just reading) Scripture in community is a powerful and ancient discipline—and why it’s missing from most churches today. They reflect on the joy of watching Scripture come alive in unexpected ways through these communal practices.
They close with a call to support: whether through recurring giving, hosting a workshop, or sharing the word, CHT is building something bigger than any one person—something rooted in Scripture and flourishing in community.
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For more articles:https://thebiblicalmind.org/
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction 00:03 Updates on The Center for Hebraic Thought 03:03 Community Engagement and Workshops 06:03 Hebraic Thought Community Initiatives 09:04 Public Listening of Scripture 11:55 The Importance of Listening to Scripture 15:10 Website Updates and Future Plans 17:53 Funding and Support for the Center 20:58 Workshops and Community Involvement