The Biblical Mind

Trying to Master the Bible? Try Savoring It Instead (Andrew Abernethy)

Literature students who can analyze a passage from East of Eden with ease often flounder when trying to analyze a Bible passage. Why? 
Dr. Andrew Abernethy explains how people can overcome barriers to understanding Scripture by using skills they already have, and by seeking not just to understand, but also to savor.
Dru asks Dr. Abernethy, Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College in Illinois, about his new book Savoring Scripture: A Six-Step Guide to Studying the Bible.
Prior to joining the faculty at Wheaton, Dr. Abernethy was a Lecturer in Old Testament at Ridley College (Melbourne), where he benefited greatly from teaching and living with fellow Christians in a cross-cultural and post-Christian context. He has written numerous articles and is also the author of several other books: Eating in Isaiah (Brill, 2014); The Book of Isaiah and God’s Kingdom (IVP, 2016); God’s Messiah in the Old Testament (Baker, 2020); Discovering Isaiah (Eerdmans/SPCK, 2021).
Show notes:
00:26 Savoring Scripture
07:48 Do we need special knowledge to understand the Bible?
14:54 The humility to overcome the fear of getting Scripture wrong
21:15 Taking time to savor God 
28:45 Applying existing skills to biblical interpretation
Show notes by Celina Durgin

Jazz, Justice, and the Gospel (William Edgar)

The rich and sad story of jazz has shaped both its sorrowful sounds and its joyful hope. William Edgar, the author of A Supreme Love: The Music of Jazz and the Hope of the Gospel, discusses the subtle and not-so-subtle ways the Bible has informed the movement and music of jazz throughout its history.
William (BA, Harvard University, MDiv, Westminster Theological Seminary, DTh, Université de Genève) is professor of apologetics at Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia. He directs the gospel-jazz band Renewal, which features the legendary singer Ruth Naomi Floyd. He is also currently professeur associé at the Faculté Jean Calvin, Aix-en-Provence (France). He has published more than 20 books and numerous articles in French and in English. His most recent book is A Supreme Love: The Music of Jazz and the Hope of the Gospel (IVP Academic, 2022). He and his wife, Barbara, have two children and three grandchildren.
Show notes:
00:25 What is jazz? Is it sinful?
05:08 Joyful with an edge of suffering
10:49 Punk rock, protest music, and intimidating jazz musicians
15:08 Entertaining jazz, delighting audiences, and fighting racism
21:20 Jazz in the trenches—gritty and ineffable
27:12 Parallel between Hebrew poetry and some jazz forms
Show notes by Celina Durgin
 

Trusting Reality: ’Longing to Know’ Turns 20 (Esther Meek)

"Knowing is an activity that all of us are involved in, all of the time," writes Dr. Esther Meek in her book Longing to Know, which turns 20 this year. "Usually knowing happens without our taking great thought to the process. But sometimes we stop and think about what we're doing. When we stop and think, what we were doing without much thought becomes murky indeed."
Think of learning to ride a bike. After a period of assisted practice, something clicks. A person who initially couldn't balance on a bike can suddenly ride off on their own. The external process of learning to ride a bike—guidance from a parent or a friend, training wheels, brief intervals of unassisted pedaling—are all easily identifiable. But the personal transformation—from not knowing how to ride a bike to knowing how—is more mysterious.
Building on the thought of Michael Polanyi, Dr. Meek challenges conceptions of knowing that have reigned since the Enlightenment, which don't reflect the way the biblical authors appear to portray how we acquire knowledge. It turns out that, for instance, doing what YHWH commands "so that you may know" looks a lot like learning to ride a bike.
Esther Lightcap Meek (BA Cedarville College; MA Western Kentucky University; PhD Temple University) is Professor of Philosophy emeritus at Geneva College, in Western Pennsylvania. She is also Senior Scholar with The Seattle School for Theology and Psychology, a Fujimura Institute Scholar, an Associate Fellow with the Kirby Laing Center for Public Theology, and a member of the Polanyi Society.
Show notes:
00:26 The bike-riding paradigm of knowing
04:30 Modernism, postmodernism, and Longing to Know
10:40 The nature of science, and "risky confidence"
15:03 How Dr. Meek got into philosophy—"very odd questions"
18:44 Making contact with reality
27:54 Reality is person-like
29:49 Christians allied with modernism
31:20 The need for a stronger doctrine of creation—a metaphysics
Show notes by Celina Durgin

Old—and New—Testament Violence and the Shalom of God (Matthew J. Lynch)

Readers of the Book of Joshua (and many other parts of the Bible) are inevitably confronted with the poblem of violence in Scripture. Texts referring to the destruction of whole cities or the killing of men, women, and children can cause us to question whether God is truly loving and just.
In this episode, Dr. Matt Lynch discusses violence in Scripture from his new book Flood and Fury: Old Testament Violence and the Shalom of God. He considers the difficulties with approaching violence from a modern perspective, the ways of reading the different violent accounts presented in Scripture, and how literally we should take biblical rhetoric. Plus, hear why being so-called "New Testament Christians" doesn't really distance us from violence in the Bible.
Dr. Lynch is an Associate Professor of Old Testament at Regent College in Vancouver. His research looks at issue of violence and the idea of monotheism in the biblical texts. Prior to his work at Regent, Matt taught at Westminster Theological Centre, Nashotah House, and Grand Rapids Theological Seminary. In addition, he founded and co-hosts the OnScript podcast.
Show notes:
0:00 Approaching violence in the Bible
3:50 Different cultural perspectives on violence
5:46 Violence for modern and ancient readers
10:25 Majority versus minority report
15:58 Idolatry in ancient Israel
18:53 Interpreting the Bible's rhetoric
23:40 The archaeology of Jericho
27:20 Christianity and violence
30:07 Joshua's challenges
34:14 Intermarriage
38:55 The primacy of some parts of Scripture
Show notes by Micah Long

ICYMI: Don’t Skip the Poems (Michelle Knight)

This episode was originally published on October, 2020. We thought it was worth a reissue for our newer listeners.
The poetry in Scripture can be hard to understand. And, especially when it is embedded within a story, such as the Song of Deborah, we might be tempted to skip over it. It uses a lot of allusion and metaphor and is pregnant with imagery and historical detail. We would rather the author just "get to the point" and give us a bullet-point summary. However, to ignore the stylistic force of biblical poetry (or any biblical genre) is to miss out on some of the deep theological underpinnings of the text.
In this episode, Dr. Michelle Knight, Assistant Professor of Old Testament and Semitic Languages at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, discusses biblical poetry and literary sensitivity to the genres of Scripture. She and Dr. Dru Johnson zoom in on the Song of Deborah in Judges and the violence it seems to celebrate, then expand to discuss Joshua and Judges more broadly. They cover biblical characterization, how the New Testament authors draw on motifs in Judges, and even compare Joshua to a Marvel movie. In the end, they aim to encourage us toward both theological understanding and literary prowess when we read the Bible.
Show notes:
0:00 Reading biblical poetry
2:24 Dru squeezes his rubber ducky
3:55 Violence in the Song of Deborah
8:51 The purpose of poetic devices in conveying meaning
12:42 Understanding the "rules" of poetry
15:18 The style of Joshua versus that of Judges
18:53 Joshua and Judges in the New Testament
21:45 Are Samson and Gideon heroes?
25:24 Understanding the character of Joshua
Read more about Michelle Knight.
Show notes by Micah Long.

The State of Jewish–Christian Relations (Pesach Wolicki)

Despite their shared foundations and concern for the Word of God, Christians and Jews rarely interact on the basis of faith in the modern world. Many Jewish communities, in response to centuries of antisemitism and persecution, have shielded themselves from Christians, while modern Christians often know very little about the Jewish faith.
Dru interviews Rabbi Pesach Wolicki about the state of relations between Christians and Jews. For Pesach, the Jewish faith centers on a universal mission to bless the whole world; as a result, his work focuses on sharing Judaism and Jewish readings of Scripture with Christians. They discuss thinkers from Maimonides to Luther, the way reading the Talmud can help Christians, and why tension still exists between Christians and Jews today. Plus, hear Pesach's critique of the popular worship song "Reckless Love."
Rabbi Pesach Wolicki is an Orthodox Rabbi whose work focuses on relations between Christians and Jews. Currently, he works as the Executive Director of the Center for Jewish–Christian Understanding and Cooperation. He has taught at churches, Christian colleges, and seminaries across North America, and writes regularly for various news outlets. He currently lives in Israel with his wife and eight children.
Show notes:
0:00 Jewish identity and its relation to Christianity
3:12 A kingdom of priests
5:45 Maimonides and the Messiah
9:55 Reading Scripture with Christians
14:48 Talmudic readings
19:44 Wolicki's method for reading the Bible
21:38 Historical perspective and current tension
29:52 Reckless love?!?
31:50 How Christians can start to understand Jews
Show notes by Micah Long

The Unwritten Word: Learning from High Orality-Reliant Cultures (Charles Madinger)

Western culture relies extensively on written text to communicate. But the majority of people across the world rely far less on reading than they do on speech, body language, story, images, and their other senses. Charles Madinger joins the podcast this week to explore the concept of orality—the multifaceted way in which people were created to communicate.
Though well-meaning pastors and missionaries may rely on three-point sermons and Bible translation projects, these efforts often miss the variety of ways that the active, living Word of God engages people's bodies and minds, in communities. Charles also examines Jesus' parables and the many ways God interacts with his people throughout Scripture, how McDonald's might do a better job communicating than most pastors, and whether Gen Z is escaping the low orality-reliance of Western culture.
Dr. Charles Madinger is the Founder and Director of the Institutes for Orality Strategies, a collective of organizations committed to evangelizing to oral communicators. In addition to his scholarly publications in the field of orality, he has worked in global ministry for thirty years. He also serves the 4.2.20 Foundation as the Vice President of the Center for Oral Scriptures.
Show notes:
0:00 Inner and outer speech
5:00 How do we best communicate?
7:39 Memory and multi-sensory communication
13:55 High versus low orality-reliance
16:40 Abstract versus concrete
23:00 Communication in the Bible
27:52 Carrying the Word of God in our bodies
30:29 The Western mind
36:03 The Gutenberg parenthesis
39:00 Teaching like Jesus taught
Show notes by Micah Long

The First Christian Nation? Keeping Up with the Armenians (Heather Ohaneson)

Despite the rich history of Armenia as an ancient Christian community, many Christians know very little about the Armenian ethnicity, culture, nation, and faith. In this episode, Dru interviews Dr. Heather Ohaneson, pastor of Armenian Martyrs' Congregational Church, about Armenian history from the early days of the church until now, along with her experience as an evangelical Protestant Armenian pastor. They discuss the culture, language, and global migration of the Armenian people, and the aftermath of the Armenian genocide and recent conflicts on their nation. And yes, the Kardashians get a mention.
Dr. Heather Ohaneson is the pastor of Armenian Martyrs' Congregational Church in Havertown, Pennsylvania. She received her PhD in philosophy of religion from Columbia University, and taught at George Fox University and Azusa Pacific University. Currently, she is pursuing an MDiv at Princeton Theological Seminary and ordination in the United Church of Christ to continue to serve the Armenian Evangelical community.
Show notes:
0:00 The first Christian nation in history
4:44 The current conflict in Armenia
5:55 The Armenian language and dialects
6:49 The Armenian genocide
9:20 Modern Armenians
14:04 Protestant and evangelical churches
16:11 The gifts of Armenian Christianity
20:00 Heather Ohaneson's background
23:00 The spread of Armenian evangelical churches
Show notes by Micah Long

Jewish Identity, Deconstruction, and Misusing the Bible (Marty Solomon)

How do we approach the Bible? Do we see it merely as a "perfect rulebook"? A piece of literature to be picked apart? Or do we see it as something that threatens to transform us and upend our preconceptions, helping us live in accordance with God and His activity? In this episode, Dru interviews Marty Solomon, cohost, creator, and Executive Producer of The BEMA Podcast and President of Impact Campus Ministries, about his approach to reading and teaching the Bible. They consider different approaches to Scripture, from fundamentalism to textual criticism to deconstruction, and explore the ways each might shed more light on the text. They also explore how understanding Jewish identity (both ancient and modern) can present both opportunities and pitfalls for understanding Scripture.
Marty Solomon is an author, teacher, and resource creator who aims to help people read the Bible in its historical and Jewish context. Along with his work at The BEMA Podcast and Impact Campus Ministries, he has written a book called Asking Better Questions of the Bible: A Guide for the Wounded, Wary, and Longing for More (releasing February 7, 2023). He aims to bring the best of Christian history, modern scholarship, and discipleship to the church, especially college students, to help them love God and serve his kingdom.
Show notes:
0:00 Inerrancy versus inspiration
2:13 Asking the Bible hard questions
5:09 Torah obedience and Jewish identity
10:02 Modern Jewish Messianism
12:09 Eastern versus Western thought
14:30 Deconstruction and college ministry
17:49 Passion for investigating Scripture
21:33 Accountability and academia
28:00 How should we approach the Bible?
31:45 What gives Marty hope
Show notes by Micah Long.

Reading the Bible Like an Adult (Avital Hazony Levi)

How do we read the Bible like adults? For many people who grew up in communities of faith, the Bible stories have been a part of their lives for as long as they can remember. But it's often not until later in life that the richer meanings of the stories come alive, misconceptions are corrected, and the voices of the biblical authors become clearer—even as we relinquish naive certainties and the expectation of a black and white world.
In this episode, Dru interviews Dr. Avital Hazony Levi, instructor in Jewish philosophy and Bible at Midreshet Nishmat. They discuss everything from the nitty-gritty vocabulary of the story of Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar to the ways in which Western philosophical concepts threaten to drown out the voices of the biblical authors to the psychology of female characters in the Hebrew Bible. Along the way, they examine core biblical concepts such as loyalty, trust, responsibility, and generational sin.
Currently a postdoctoral fellow at Tel Aviv University, Avital has a rich background in both the Hebrew Bible and philosophy, and her work spans from moral epistemology to the nature of loyalty and worship. She has taught philosophy, Jewish thought, and Tanakh at Nishmat, TVA, and the Orthodox Union college summer program.
Show notes:
0:00 Reading the Bible like an adult
2:38 Abraham's loyalty
5:10 Why does Sarah give Hagar to Abraham?
11:33 Bitterness and faithlessness
17:00 Teaching the Bible in Hebrew
21:55 Free will and generational punishment
27:24 God's omniscience
30:19 Philosophical questions in the Bible
35:39 Responsibility and choice
40:49 The best thing about teaching
Show notes by Micah Long